Friday, May 20, 2022

1542: The Creation – Mormon Doctrine vs. Science w/ Dr. Simon Southerton #01

Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of mormon stories podcast i am one of your co-hosts today i am john deland and i am joined by the thoughtful the insightful the funny the witty care burel kara hey john everyone it's good to have you co-hosting today .

Yeah i squeezed myself in here when i heard that simon was doing another great like analysis so i'm really excited for this one and i hope everyone else is too hi everyone absolutely and we are also uh super excited to have with us the gerardo sumano as a second co-host wait are you a second coast or a third co-host which is that .

Gerardo uh i think it would be second second co-host all right were you like your first presidency right and gerardo this this uh this project was actually kind of your idea you're your producer on this one right yeah yeah um yeah simon's been working .

Really hard on this project that we all um you know discussed a few months ago uh so we're really excited about it yeah and so without any further ado let's add our special guest of honor it's the dr simon sotherton hey simon welcome back to mormon stories podcast hey simon hi cara hi corrado it's nice to catch up .

Again and you're joining us from australia is that right that's right from canberra it's just after 10 o'clock in the morning i love it well uh we to kick off this episode we have to begin by uh well let me introduce simon .

Really quick those of you who know simon will know that uh he influenced me so way back when i had my faith crisis back in the early 2000s and i was trying to make sense of mormonism without the internet i stumbled on a book called losing a lost tribe written by simon southerton .

This uh former mormon bishop geneticist from australia who had served as a mormon bishop who knew genetics who studied native american dna and started talking about it and simon you were rewarded uh with what by talking openly about the genetics how were you rewarded .

eventually excommunication it took about seven years and they use other excuses to to excommunicate me but yeah yeah and so simon simon uh you've influenced a lot of people you've been at this game a long time longer than me which says something and uh and of .

Course you've been on mormon stories podcast several times so we'll include in the show notes past interviews with you simon as well but um we want to begin today's episode by announcing a project that we are super excited about and so .

Um uh yeah if you go back to the first slide gerardo please um a slide the project that we're announcing is called mormon doctrine versus science with simon sutherton .

And basically uh you guys know that recently uh we you know we've had john larson on we're paying john larson to come on mormon stories once a month and he's doing great content that so many of you value we just announced the thrive story project where margie delane is going to be coming on .

To share stories about healing and growth uh from from you and we're looking forward to margie doing that as well we are excited to announce a third partner a content partner for 2022 and that's dr simon southerton the series is called um mormon doctrine versus science and yeah next slide thanks gerardo um .

Just to give you a sense for this project simon's gonna come on monthly uh he'll cover uh various topics regarding the interface between science and mormon doctrine uh we we do you know so much of simon's work is worth mentioning that he really .

Hasn't gotten paid for whether it's his book with signature book that he doesn't even receive royalties from anymore or this amazing new book that he's written called the sacred curse uh or just all the blogging that he's done and all the research we we really are frustrated uh on .

Simon's part but even more so motivated on simon's part to help make sure that just like many of us he's getting some financial remuneration for his efforts and so we plan on paying simon for his work and uh what we've done is we've set up a page uh on uh on mormon stories .

You can go to podcast simon and you'll see that we've announced this episode and there's a little donate button and if you want to see simon if you want to contribute so that simon can get paid for his work you click on that little donate button you can select how much a month .

That you want to donate become a monthly donor and with that uh we'll be able to you know make simon feel like we really value and appreciate his work and the special deal that we have now going on is simon's got this new book called the sacred curse .

Which is an important book with his updated science around uh genetics dna and native americans and what what will happen is when you donate clicking on this link you will be sent a link to download that pdf and that will be a gift that we offer you for supporting this series uh with simon and so that is kind of uh .

What what we're talking about um and uh we really need your support to make this happen a hundred percent of your donations for this project will go to simon mormon stories covers uh overhead me and cara gerardo you know all the people that support this stuff so you can know that if you donate to simon's project 100 of .

That money is going to go to him we're not going to skim anything off of that and again of course you can get that amazing book from simon simon anything you want to say about this project before we kind of jump on uh to the next thing um not really i think you've done a pretty .

Um generous introduction to it there um it uh i think the sort of motivation for me is is my own private experience of going through a faith crisis um having been a very devout .

Member of the church and having you know very um strongly held beliefs um stumbling on science that causes a problem and and then going to leaders of the church and saying how do i deal with this problem they refer me to the scientists at .

Brigham young university and the brigham young university scientists don't believe the same things that the leaders of the church believe so if i can help people to i guess to ex to expose what's going on in sort of this um .

processes occurring in the church where the leaders don't have the answers they direct them to scholars and the scholars don't believe the same things as the leaders i think that's something that i'm really keen to illustrate during the podcast series .

Because that was a critical thing for me finding that the science that um that the scholars at brigham young university are dealing with the way they handle it is very different to the way um the senior leaders of the church .

Uh interpret the science but uh you know i really appreciate the opportunity to do this podcast series because i think there's a lot of really fascinating science that's come up even i mean the 21st century since the publication of the human genome is just just an enormous wealth of scientific .

Information out there and it there are many areas where the lds doctrine strays into the scientific realm and science is perfectly entitled to push back and say you know this is these are the facts in this .

Um in this area that you're talking about um and we that's that's what we're gonna be talking about today in in future episodes which i'm really looking forward to well we are too so uh yeah i'm super excited about that .

Gerardo did you want to add something uh yeah so on youtube also uh we created a fundraiser that's going to be attached to all simon's episodes and if people donate through there a hundred percent of that also uh since it's since it's going through uh the open stories foundation nonprofit um .

100 of those donations will go to the simon fund well look at that we've already raised 78 dollars cool yep in the in the facebook uh in the in the youtube uh donor campaign so we're on our way simon well i thought i thought i might just give a little bit of a teaser for some .

Of the things that we might talk about please um not all of them and i'm actually very happy to have feedback from from listeners if there's any particular area of science that they'd really like to to hear about or to be raised in an episode .

I'm very happy to have criticism if i've got something wrong and i do occasionally get things wrong i think i've got something wrong in a last episode and we can correct things like that in the in a future episode but today we're going to talk about um the creation .

And i think in that episode we're basically going to open a whole can of worms and in future episodes we'll dissect and look at some of those worms um like the next one we're going to be talking about will be human evolution and that'll flow very nicely out of this .

Episode then we'll talk about the flood in all the scientific evidence that does not support a global flood a flood i also want to talk about the most recent very up-to-date the latest genomics research on native americans .

Which is really fascinating very compelling but also just really interesting stories i want to focus on just really interesting little tidbits of science that people may not have meant to be aware of we'll talk about the genomes of the polynesians genomes genomic dna is just really .

A very very rich resource it can tell you where a person a person's ancestry is but also can tell you the timing of previous migrations of your ancestors has been very useful for looking deeply into the genomes of native americans and polynesians and in the .

Case of polynesians it's revealed that polynesians actually beat columbus to the new world um it's very very compelling evidence and it's but it's a fascinating story but i also want to do an episode focusing entirely on the maya the maya are very fascinating um an amazing culture in the americas .

So talk about the the dna but also just some of the really fascinating stuff that the mayan civilization has brought to us um and a bunch of other things and if i'm brave enough i might do an episode on the science of same-sex attraction um that's something that's .

I've been very very interested in for many years and we're learning more and more about not just the um the genetics and the biology but the the psychology of this of same-sex attraction and so and i also hope to invite i will be .

Inviting a number of scientists to join us so fingers crossed we'll get some really fascinating scientists who work in the particular field to help him and contribute that's great we've already gotten some comments mark blanchard .

Uh basically says we're special i'm specifically interested in your thoughts on james tallmadge anti-darwinist geology professor and mormon apostle so that that whole era of like talmadge woodstow eyring bh roberts just that history of that whole battle between them and joseph .

Fielding smith could be really interesting just to recount that history because that that story hasn't really been told in a in a more thoughtful way on warmer stories yeah yeah um and then somebody else uh you know jules writes i would love to learn more .

About the mayans so yeah people are excited simon yeah well i think the um yeah i mean obviously the mines are where the uh limited geography has really been focused um and uh yeah it's just uh .

Focus on the science just talk a little about science we don't get too into to bagging the apologists and i mean they're obviously dealing with something they believe very strongly in but um science is science and it's just they just really want to find truth and .

This is what it's all about it's getting to the truth of things um yeah we're going to touch on talents today briefly but i don't i suspect for that listeners and probably not going to be as deeply as they would like um .

Sort of a little bit before my time probably before your time too john i think absolutely before your time a little bit before john's time gerardo's the baby here well i certainly had jesus a copy of jesus the christ on my mission one of those little little leather bound .

Pocket ones it was a yeah very pro prized possession all right any and again for all those who are interested you can go to or in the description here on facebook or youtube click on the link become a monthly supporter to simon and let's just make sure he gets paid .

For his work um because he deserves to um yeah and i'm pasting it in the chat so anyone in the chat it's right there for you thanks kara yeah thanks everyone for donating already so i'm excited for this project all right so gerardo do you want to tell .

Us uh anything about why you wanted to kick off here or or anything else you want to say gerardo before we jump in sure um i mean i guess simon's going to do the introduction of the of the episode but uh we me with simon we have been talking a lot about what should be the first uh .

Episode that we do on this series um and we decided that probably the most appropriate thing is to start with the creation and with what the church teaches about the creation evolution uh getting just a little bit on adam and eve uh but actually do a whole episode on on .

Adam eve and why that's that doctrine is really important for mormonism and for the historicity of the book of mormon and the scriptures that joseph smith produced um and also coincidentally this year uh the church is studying on sunday school um everyone you know uh .

Young men young women um adults and even seminary i believe they're studying uh the old testament this year so it's gonna be kind of interesting to uh do some of the parallels of the things that the church is teaching right now and .

With with the series so it's going to be really interesting all right and we've got a really really great comment that you're going to love simon uh somebody asks uh yeah christian christian writes how come british people always sound smarter must be the accent anything .

Anything you want to say about that simon um you brett sounds so intelligent i'm gonna be pretty careful when i say that is that an insult to call it an aussie or brit is that an insult no well i'm i'm actually born here but my parents are british yeah okay my father was born .

In shanghai shanghai china um and my mum was born in in scotland i think yeah christian apologizes christian says my bad he likes he says australians have wicked accents too so you still get the prize .

Mine's sort of a bit of a mixture i think not a not a terribly broad australian accent but people here understand me that's the main thing well let's jump in and we've got you know for those of you who are joining us just through audio we're going to do our .

Best to be as descriptive in our language as possible but if you really want to get the full benefit of this podcast we've got visuals and you can go to youtube or facebook to check out the visuals um yeah but let's go ahead and start simon you take it away and gerardo you can drive the .

Slides yeah and i think we'll um parado may create a put these links onto the website yeah these ones that are embedded in the slides if they go onto the website that might be good yeah .

So yeah this this um i was actually quite a little bit taken aback when i saw this institute lesson on the creation um i think it's because i mean i've been out of the church for 20 years and i've probably read more apologetic stuff .

Than anything that's written by the church and the apologists are always put you know oh the church hasn't have any opinion on evolution and you know all that sort of stuff um and then i was just very surprised to see that this this lesson .

Has just uh promote heavily promotes young earth creationism this is fundamentalist pseudoscience um well it's well um well known that young earth creationism is uh has basically no basis in science at all it's it's heavily reliant on .

The bible the bible is just used as the evidence for this and it's only through distorting science that you heavily destroying science that you can support young earth creationism so i had formed the opinion that the church has sort of moved away from this .

But i was really quite taken aback to see it in this lesson and harada i felt the same way i think this lesson was probably hasn't been touched for close to 45 years i think it was probably written in the 80s yes yeah there was a there was a reprint or new .

Edition i believe it's 2006 so but nothing has changed yeah so what we're talking about here is the institute lesson on the creation so this is a lesson that's given to basically adults between the age of sort of 18 to 30 would that be right .

Would that be the young singlet old age group that would yes have the internet lessons yep okay these are the next generation of leaders of the church or the some of them would be leaders of the church and this is what they're .

Being taught um for those who don't know the term young earth creation it's it's just that the that the earth is what six seven thousand years is that the idea we've created that life and man was created within the last 10 .

000 years okay in the in the case of the lds church it's sort of 7 000 years yeah so this slide here summarizes pretty much the main sort of doctrinal .

Points um it talks a little bit about the pre-earth life but essentially the mormon view this summarizes the mormon view of creation which sort of comes out of the lesson so after the pre-earth life the so the .

World was created but the eldest church does not believe that it's a um everything came into existence seven thousand years ago the belief is basically that the creation was an organizational process so there was older stuff lying around um and that was used to create the earth .

Um and i have heard that some you know some members believe that dinosaurs are on other planets and they were um moved to this planet to create this planet but uh but generally there's no real issue with lds doctrine in terms of the age of .

The earth it's you know they recognize it as very old the material used to make the earth but what's very clear in lds doctrine is that adam and eve are real people so adam was the first creature on the earth there was no other mortal creature before him .

Okay so he was the first physical mortal being and then he through his fall he brought death to the world and then other uh other life came to being other mortal beings came into existence that's .

A term i remember uh reading in in doctrines of salvation i believe no death before the fall and that's just that's animals and human life right that's that's mormon prophet sears and revelators teaching that there was no death before the fall of adam and eve yeah yeah yeah i was taught that when i was 18 and i remember my first relief .

Society talking about the importance of no death before the fall and adam and eve so that was definitely part of my upbringing yeah so they a term that we'll see later on that's used is the term pre-adamites when we're talking about humans that may have existed before adam .

Um but uh to add even further weight to that belief that were all descended from adam six or seven thousand years ago and he was our father is that the garden of eden was a real .

Place so it's very clear in lds scripture and we're going to read some of these scriptures just in a moment might take turns in reading these but the garden of eden is located in a place called adamandayamen which is in davies counties missouri so lds doctrine very neatly brings the .

United states into the into the picture um and another point that's raised in the uh in the lesson is uh that the earth is seven thousand years old okay so that and .

That before the flood so when the earth was created there was just one land mass and then the flood and the cat you know the cataclysms after the flood changed the earth and the geography of the earth so we're not going to talk much more about the global flood but that's .

Something we'll talk about in the future um and we'll talk a lot about adam and eve a little bit more about adam now um but we will have an episode where we do delve a little bit deeper into adam and eve and really quickly uh you know well i guess you're gonna show .

Some scriptures let's let's go ahead and go to the scriptures and then i'll come back to the point yeah so here's a scripture from the doctrine covenants which tells us how old the earth is so um this is a for it's doctrine .

Covenant 77 has written a sort of question and answer session with joseph smith and and god answering um and the question is what are we to understand by the book which john saw which was sealed on the back with seven seals this is john the rook this is from revelations .

That's the john from that it's referring to and the answer is from god we are to understand that it contains the revealed will mysteries and the works of god the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance or its temporal existence .

So that's where you get this um we know the the age of the earth in terms of the physical beings that on the earth are 7 000 years since that time yeah errata you might you out of this .

Slide so you might let you talk to that one yeah so this was uh just an interesting find that uh because i was trying to compare you know what the because i know the institute manual hasn't been really redone since since the 80s but the church has made new seminary manuals so i was curious what it said and the .

Last doctrine covenants uh seminary manual for for students uh that was published in 2017 has this quote about doctrine covenant 77 uh it says it may be helpful to understand that in doctrine covenants 77 6 .

The 7 000 years is in reference to the earth's temporal existence meaning since the fall of adam it is not commenting on the age of the earth so basically they're say admitting to what simon was saying that yeah the materials that were used .

To build the earth were old but adam lived 7 000 years ago and they're reiterating that idea yeah and go to the previous uh go to the previous scripture gerardo but it says it's temporal existence that's how that verse ends right .

Yeah uh the church in well mike conkey and joseph filling smith interpretation is that when adam fell you know the whole earth started its temporal existence because before adam's fall the the earth was .

Eternal um okay all right okay yeah i think mcconkey even went as far as to say that the fruit when they partake partook of the fruit uh .

Blood started before their bodies didn't have blood so then the fruit made blood start kind of like flowing in their bodies and that's what made them mortal and he happened to all creatures on earth as well why are you laughing john .

It sounds like a sci-fi movie everybody's immortal and then they eat this fruit and then all of a sudden their blood transforms and the earth like changes its spiritual nature and all of a sudden becomes mortal or temporal but but it's in the scriptures i mean .

That's the point you're making is that yeah this is god god chose to reveal this to joseph smith right yeah yeah god had a lot of important things to get out joseph smith only had a few revelations and he the temporal nature of the earth was one of the most important ones for us to understand apparently so .

There's some good stuff yeah all right but we will try and stick to the scriptures as much as we can here so the doctrine but there i couldn't resist putting in a quote from breaking run later on that we'll talk about where they get a little bit um it's very sci-fi .

You've got the world spinning around the universe and ending up in this galaxy and this solar system yeah so the other thing that's quite clear in in elder scripture is um the centrality of adam and eve so we won't talk a great deal about this .

But you know adam and eve adam was a a a major um i guess he was a very valiant spirit in the pre-existence i know i think that there's a belief that he was involved in the creation of the earth um and that there were many of these uh .

Spirits that were involved in guiding the direction and the creation of the earth um um but uh yeah i know the it's quite clear from elder scripture that we are all descended from our adam and eve he's our father so i might read the um .

Verse we've got two verses of scripture here one that's from the book of mormon second nephi two um and one of these is a well-known scripture to anybody that's uh studied in seminary and now behold if adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen but he would have remained in the garden .

Of eden and all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created and they must have remained forever and had no end so all these animals and living things on the planet are there forever but here is the scripture verse every young mormon .

Um memorizes when they're in seminary yeah verse adam felt men might be and men are that they might have joy and then another verse here in moses chap chapter 6 verse 48 and he said unto them because .

That adam fell we are and by his fall came death and we made partakers of misery and woe so that's what we're in here folks we're in misery and woe and so expanding doctrine like these these very literal scientific claims are god god made the effort to reveal them .

Not just in the book of mormon but in the book of moses and in the doctrine and covenants yeah and abraham yeah so it's all all through all of the additional scriptures that probably have their origin in the 19th century um .

But wait there's more there's more um who would like to read these out these are some scriptures that clearly identify uh where the garden of eden is so we got dnc section 116. spring hill is named by the lord adam on diamond because he said said he sorry .

Because said he it is the place where adam shall come to visit his people or the ancient of days shall sit as spoken of by daniel the prophet and section 107 verse 53 states three years previous to the death of adam he called seth enos kanan malcolm not that mormon i don't know how to .

Pronounce all these names jared enoch and methula into the valley of adam on diamond and they're bestowed upon them his last blessing what are these saying simon well it's saying that uh adam was physically there in the at adam on diamond .

Giving a blessing to all of these uh patriarchs and uh that's from 10107 and from 116 it identifies where atom on diamond are so joining the dots between those two things then the garden of eden and adam walked so adam walked in the garden of eden and it's located .

Uh in missouri at adam diamond so that's a that is a physical location in america and that's a belief that's still upheld today right there's never been any kind of like recanting that's where the lds church still believes the garden of eden is located .

Yes that hasn't changed since joseph smith said it okay put it in god said it i'm sorry yeah it really locks them in it locks them into adam being a real person because he's he's got land that he walked on um one of our viewers listeners makes a fun .

Comment jules 2.0 writes i love that one of the names is jared it's like methuselah enoch mahalo kanan enos and jared and justin and beverly now it's it's a it's a fun point no but but doesn't the bible .

Have a lineage that goes from adam and eve to his children down to noah and then from noah right all the way down to like you know abraham and isaac and jacob and then david like the old testament itself gives a pretty clear literal .

Interpretation of its history that all humans come from adam and eve yeah around 6 000 years ago is that true simon yep yeah there's really it's not just mormonism this is old testament stuff right well in um we'll talk about this a bit later on .

But you know there are many christian religions that don't subscribe to this uh to adam and eve being real people okay they it's basically a creation myth yeah don't have any problem with it right that's okay except for the fact that by .

By looking at these mormon scriptures you can see and joseph's own prophecies and declaring you know you know the new jerusalem and and in missouri being the site of the garden of eden and adam and almond and yeah i mean scripture and doctrine is locked .

Into this theory it is sort of part of the bedrock it just just makes it much more i mean the church does proudly talk about these being a second witness you know the book of mormon is a second witness um and you know the doctrine of covenants .

Pearl great price are additional witnesses and they're it all is fairly consistent um and so it does make it challenging for the church to work around this um what we can add we're gonna have .

Something yeah that's what i was gonna say uh we are probably one of the only churches out there who claims that have a prophet that speaks to god directly you know even other religions like jehovah witnesses do not make those kind of claims .

So the fact that we produce new scripture which is revealed directly by god you know like that locks mormonism in into this thinking and it like simon said there's very little wiggle room for for lds doctrine yeah i mean obviously there are .

Very many particularly the evangelicals that hold this um very similar views to the lds church based on the bible and and you know the bible is inerrant so there's no mistakes in there and they just just follow it .

Um but there are many many uh religions that don't don't get hung up on it yes and it's probably worth mentioning we're all taught to refer to the book of mormon as what which book what .

The keystone of our religion but also the most correct book the most correct book right yeah of all books i assume right the most correct book of all books i believe that's in the same joseph smith quote right not only is it the keystone of our religion it is the most correct book .

That people will get closer to god by adhering to it than by any other book and may i just add it is really hard to read a lot of books instead of just one it's really hard to listen to a lot of experts instead of just one and so mormonism kind of funnels people into read one book and you'll get the correct answers it's harder to read a lot of .

Books and you know decipher back from fiction from them so anyway continue so to spice it up i thought i'd throw in a brigham young speculation so this is from the discourses of the journal of discourses i don't know which year he said this but um .

I'll read the quote when the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it it was near the throne of our father in heaven and when men fell the earth fell into space and took up its abode in this planetary system and the sun became our light okay .

That's brigham young physicist geophysicist yeah that i was taught this um by by my dad as factual um yeah like that's what happened when adam fell like my whole life i believed this .

And that's when the dinosaurs died when when the earth fell into into our current um solar system yeah so like the earth is like hanging around kolob yeah and then that's what he was .

Thinking there yeah uh josephine smith talked about it mcconkey talked about it too it was not just brigham young and you know just like i think it was benner who said that multiple general authorities talking about the subject you should pay .

Attention you know simon is that the way is that where planets work do they fall into space is that the way it works are they like hanging out and then they fall into place is that how space works things seem to take an awful long time in space and .

I think the earth's been pretty much in this orbit for an awful long time um look you know look to be fair to the church this is um they'll just sort of blow this away blow this off because it's just uh he's speaking as a man and he's .

Speculating and that's fair enough and there are lots of other things that have been said by church leaders at times that are pretty crazy but i won't um dwell on those but that's um that's quite different him speculating is quite different to the doctrine that .

We were talking about earlier that's really there's very little wiggle room with that sort of when you've got scriptures that are fairly explicit like that um so we're talking about today .

Is the institute manual okay so it's and and we're going to talk a little bit now about the young earth creationism that's within the institute manual but it's not a lot of that material is not in the seminary manuals so there are other manuals where that's .

That's been either pulled out or um they're not teaching that to the youth and it's probably a good thing because the less young earth creationism you teach to to young kids the better because it um it doesn't prepare them very well for for an educated life if they go to university or anything like that so .

Yeah i i was the one that added this slide uh yes i remembered tell her tell our listeners tell our listeners what the slide is gerardo so this is a timeline that the church still has on their website is still part of the seminary uh curriculum on the website .

And it's what you were saying john like the the bible provides kind of like a timeline of how many years each prophet lived and when they died and when the next one you know like was born so this is not just the church's timeline like i know several other like uh .

Orthodox christians would uh believe this uh as to be the old testament timeline so the church used to print the these i i don't know if they still do and they hand them out to seminary or institute students uh and he basically has .

Just a timeline of all the prophets of the old testament adam seth garrett noah enoch um methuselah they idiot it even has lehi in there at 600 bc uh leaving uh .

Leaving jerusalem or yeah to go to the americas it says league high goes to the americas in 600 bc and it has adam as being born or created uh around 3900 bc so that puts him around 7 000 years ago no it starts at 4 000. it starts at 4 000 .

Um it's just the 4 000 is off the chart yeah right right so it's got it's got adam being born 4000 bc living 930 years yeah that's what bibles does yeah that's what the book yeah you can't blame the moments for that and jared jared lived 962 and then methuselah is 969 so methuselah .

Almost lived a thousand years that's pretty impressive simon yeah yeah i think those names that cara read out that she struggled with i think they were taken directly from the bible i think you took the syllables i said directly from the bible too that's exactly expressly how they're supposed .

To be said yeah but that i mean again even if the church is moving away from this graphic this is what we were taught for 150 years right like and we were taught it by profiteers and revelators that claim to have direct .

Lines to god i think that's even if the church is kind of distancing themselves there still should probably be some type of accountability for what so many of us were taught forever there's even a comment in the comments section that this graphic is triggering for some people .

Because it's so interwoven with their high school years and seminary and scripture chase and all that stuff yeah yeah but it's still on the website it's still it's you know it hasn't it's part of the curriculum still yeah all right simon what else .

Also that that chart is very lgbtq friendly if i just might add yeah it's super lgbtq it's very sassy yeah yeah sorry i just wanted to say church good job on your graphics yeah so this next slide i've put this in just to to illustrate that you know this hasn't been .

You know where we're challenging we're questioning the things that are the claims of the the church here but it's there's been a lot of argument and debate um particularly mostly between .

Um educated sort of scientists general authorities that have had some scientific training and uh other more black and white um general authorities in the past but there was a very notable event in the 1930s when .

Um brigham b.h roberts who was in the corner of the 70 at the time was a fight he was assigned by the first presidency um to create a student manual for the male quesadilla priesthood holders and in that draft he stated that death had been occurring on earth for millions .

Of years prior to the fall of adam and that human-like pre-adamites had lived on the earth now that manual the draft manual then went to the um the apostles and joseph smiling feeling smith who was an apostle at the time later became the president of the church .

I think in the very early 70s he was vehemently opposed to that wording in the draft and there's a wonderful quote there from joseph f smith that's quoted i could dig out where it's from but no adam no fall no fall no atonement no atonement no savior .

So he he's a very very black and white apostle and he was not mincing words he just was not going to have any admission that there was death before the fall or the existence of preadomites so .

And he outranked he outranked bhr roberts use an apostle and eventually prophet you know yes the problem i mean joseph philly smith is right if you're believing lds a doctrine having a death before adam really represents a problem because then especially for mormons who believe that .

You know before like adam and eve could not have kids uh in the garden of eden and that's why they had to fall because they had and they had to experience death uh and that was all part of the plan so having death before adam presents a real .

Problem to why why was there a need for you know like adam and eve being tempted on the first place and then just like joseph filling smith is saying here if adam didn't fall then why do we need an atonement and what do we need a savior for .

So like having death before adam really really presents a a big big problem for me huge kink in the structure for sure no adam no fault no fall no atonement no atonement no savior .

And the leaders that we're supposed to be getting this information from you could say if there was all of these things if there was death before the fall you could pause it maybe no profit yeah yeah but um so the it was actually quite of um it was a very very difficult time for .

The church because they had this so jesus feeling smith was really opposed he actually went into one to publish something in a church magazine at the time which was where he expressed his opposition to that sort of view um james e talmage came into the picture he .

Was an apostle at the time he was concerned because the church wanted to sort of publicly take a neutral position but joseph fielding smith had publicized his views so much james e talmadge became concerned that the alternative view wasn't .

Being given enough airing and he was actually given permission by the first presidency to i think he gave a talk in salt lake or something maybe byu or whatever um and during that talk he's expressed some support for bh robert's views uh in terms um .

The po of the possibility of pre-abriadomites but um but he never he um he didn't really believe evolution so he wasn't an evolutionist um but you know he got hardly any exposure for the the things that he wrote .

And i think this is a trend that's been repeated over and over and over again the church pretends to have no position or does says it's neutral all these controversial things but the people that are given the most oxygen are people that are fun the fundamentalists um and a good example there is bruce o .

Mcconkey um and this is what he was an apostle at the time in 1980s i suspect this was just around about the time this this lesson was written he said there were no pready mites adam was not the end product of .

Evolution sorry you've just taken there we go yeah adam was not the end product of evolution there was no death in the world either for man or for any form of life until after the fall of adam so that was in bruce that some of those quotes are from bruce armaconkey's .

Book mormon doctrine which of course the church now doesn't do they still publish that i don't know they still publish it no they don't endorse it um yeah they're definitely testing themselves from it yeah but it's still being quoted in current curriculum uh .

You know for for sunday school and even the the newest ones while they well well they now try to quote uh modern prophets a lot more uh living ones they they're still quoting bruce r mcconkey and joseph filming smith and if we go back just a few years earlier like .

It's just like simon's saying the manuals and what the church was teaching in sunday school institute seminary was not about preadomites and what james almonds taught about these things or bh robert everything was based on joseph fielding smith and mcconkie's ideas so it's it's really a problem when the church tries .

To say that they have their uh neutral on these issues when like like we're uh like simon's making the point the exposure that the church gives uh decides to give it is to this uh fundamentalist ideas and that's why we all grew up with that .

Yeah and the lesson um and the lesson this that we're talking about this institute lesson is um heavily leaning on the fundamentalist um perhaps harada you could read out the next quote and this is this is a quote taken .

From uh that's given the lesson yeah yeah yeah yes this is from the institute manual uh it's uh it's joseph finley smith it says i say most and emphatically you cannot believe in this theory of the origin of man and at the same time except the plan of salvation is set forth by the lord our .

God you must choose the one and reject the other for they are in direct conflict and there is a gulf separating them which is so great that it cannot be breached no matter how much one may try to do so yeah and he made many many other comments .

Like that are continuously quoted because he became the prophet he was the prophet for two years in fact we joined the church in 1970 and he died not long after we joined and i i tend to have wanted to demonize folks like joseph fielding smith because of their fundamentalism but on the other hand you kind of have to respect their .

Consistency because what he's doing is he's taking mormon scripture seriously and he's taking joseph smith seriously he's taking the temple ceremony seriously and he's just saying if i have to choose between scripture .

And joseph smith's divine calling and you know revealed science i'm going with scripture and joseph smith's divine calling every single time and so even though he tends to be demonized today is really misguiding generations of people into faulty .

Thinking and bad science i mean he at least he's consistent and has integrity in the sense of of uh upholding mormon doctrine and theology in scripture yeah i think yeah no i agree i think that's a fair assessment um .

It's intellectually consistent it may not be intellectually sophisticated but at least it's it's it's consistent yeah it was so consistent that it did 80 of my faith crisis so thanks for that quote yeah but it's yeah it's um .

it's consistent but unfortunately he's um he's straying very heavily into the to this you know the scientific realm um as does the scripture yeah that's a good point i mean people are looking up to these people's prophets and there's quotes in in uh .

Mormonism that say that a prophet can speak to anything at any time right and so a lot of people they don't even need to look into the science of the evolution if that's what their prophet and their leaders are saying is true about the age of the earth and things what more what more books you need to read you know that's definitely the way .

That i was raised so yeah so what we've talked about up until now is pretty much the the lesson now i think many teachers probably wouldn't even talk to these points to ponder parts but at the end of the lesson this is where we get into the young .

Earth creationism so um so good job me to read it yeah but what of the scientific evidence that supposedly contradicts these statements isn't the evidence that all life evolved from a common source overwhelming .

Harold g coffin professor of paleontology and research at the geoscience research institute andrews university in michigan presented one one scientist view of how life began the following excerpts are from a pamphlet on the creation written by dr coffin yeah dr coffin .

There's some interesting background here uh he's a seventh-day adventist and andrew's university is a seventh-day adventist university and he's a professor he was a professor of paleontology there so the the lesson then goes on to put very large quotes .

Straight out of a 16-page pamphlet which is an individual scientist's opinions and none of it's peer-reviewed it's a 16-page pamphlet okay virtually zero credibility um and these are the views that he coffin expresses .

And i'll i'll just make a few comments of them in a moment but basically the first one is that life is unique basically it's complicated and it could never um it's it's to summarize this is basically .

Anti-evolution this young earth creationism is just anti-evolutionism so life is unique complex animals appear suddenly and he gives some evidence for this basic kinds of animals have not changed so there's no shifting from one to the other so those two arguments there are .

Basically arguments from ignorance so you know because we don't have any particular evidence right now uh there's a gap um and so this is where god hides in these gaps between pieces of evidence so that the .

Missing links that you hear about sort of comes from these sorts of ideas in young earth creationism and it was interesting readings the words of a scientist who had debated many young earth creationists and he said as soon as you provide evidence to fill a gap .

They just come back and say you've just created two new gaps on either side of piece either side of the piece of evidence you've just given and the final claim is the the claim that change in the president is limited but there's a wonderful quote here that i like um .

From a man named herbert spencer he says those who cavalierly reject the theory of evolution as not adequately supported by facts seem quite to forget that their own theory is supported by no facts at all so i just wanted to give you some a taste for some of the things that .

Harold coffin mentions that are quoted in this institute manual i'll just comment briefly on some of those if you move to the next slide gerardo the client you're muted you're muted you want to mute yourself if you're talking .

Yeah sorry uh i just want to say something really quick uh i can't as i was reading this four points that the lesson manual quotes from coffin i can remember at least two or three references from ross lemon nelson promoting these ideas i think a couple of them in general conference russell nelson is famous for .

That quote where he pretty much says that uh that an explosion of a printing press would not produce a dictionary and life is so complex so evolution cannot produce uh pretty much what he's saying is evolution cannot produce .

The human species uh he also has promoted the idea of dogs have always been dogs which is the quote that we're going to present later but russell mannell's current prophet of the church believes all .

Most if not all of these ideas yeah yeah so he's a medical doctor which some find right fascinating yeah yeah a cardiologist maybe he went to med school when all of these ideas were really .

Uh not that out of whack with the other med students he was with didn't charles darwin live in the 1800s though well maybe give the guy a break he just hasn't updated his textbooks he's still flipping through the ones from the 50s brother russell the brink .

Well the most the most compelling evidence for evolution that we have now is dna without question um because it's completely independent from the fossil evidence and uh dna the molecule wasn't discovered until years after .

Uh president nelson would have got his degree the human genome wasn't sequenced until you know the turn of the century so um he would be completely unaware of that sort of science yeah there's people who got their scientific education before the genome was .

Sequenced and then there's the after well i think you know he would have been an outstanding cardiologist and i think i'd make the observation later on that i don't if i had a heart attack and i wanted a cardiologist to operate on me i wouldn't care what he believed about evolution he could be completely .

Ignorant about it all i would want him to be knowledgeable about would be hearts and how to fix my heart so yeah yeah just has no bearing on his knowledge of evolution so .

But this claim this is i'll read out a quote from the lesson from coffin um if you could um expand that a little sorry i love when kara reads the quotes okay go and take care with my clear addition and proper pronunciation of all of the words yes yes .

Nasty words in there no okay we're good so it says some responses to coffin's claims life is unique quote scientist homer jacobson reports in american scientists january 1955 from the probability standpoint the ordering of the present environment into a single amino acid molecule would be .

Utterly improbable in all the time and space available for the origin of terrestrial life all right so tell us what that's saying well i've highlighted a section there for those who can see the slide he says the ordering of the present environment okay .

He just couldn't imagine that it would create an amino acid molecule the current environment is the current environment scientists know what getting a much greater understanding of what the world's atmosphere was like you know three to four billion years ago when the earliest signs of life started .

Appearing so and they're starting they've been doing experiments where they're starting to you know mixing the ingredients and and they are finding that some of these molecules will spontaneously come create themselves and start assembling so .

There was never a time that all of these things were happening in a very very different world three or four billion years ago for example the oxygen that we have in the air only came into existence about 2.2 billion years ago .

And that was cyanobacteria were starting to create the oxygen so it was living things that were starting to create the oxygen which then created the environment for life to to really kick off an evolution to start occurring so so there's a clear error in his thinking .

There that's perfectly understandable for something that was written back in 1975. the next statement that he makes complex animals appear suddenly and what he's referring to is the cambrian explosion now um and he quotes a man named charles .

Walcott who was an early um of the president of this woody whoever what do you recall the person in charge of the miss smithsonian probably the director of the smithsonian in 1910 charles walcott while riding horseback across the canadian rocky stumbled onto a most interesting find of .

Sea fossils this site has provided the most complete collection of cambrian fossils known they are found in the oldest rocks to contain any significant number of fossils where are their ancestors that's the question there's no explanation well .

The cambrian explosion took place at a time when animals started to create hard shells around them and make much better fossils that's the main thing that was going on there but there was a lot of um there was an explosive period and if we go to the next slide you can actually see this slide puts it into .

Sort of context you can see the the red bar in the middle there 500 it's about 520 to 570 million years ago when the cambrian explosion took place and that's when the the body the basic body assemblage of .

Um most living animals on the earth that's when it was sort of established so jellyfish worms mollusks arthropods and crustaceans all start appearing in that very explosive period but there were .

Scientists have found many fossils before that period so there are fungi and sponges that are in 600 700 million years before then corals 700 to 800 million years ago and then bacterial fossils around about a billion years ago so .

And he is focusing on the cambrian explosion um sort of takes um is is distorting the picture of evolution which has occurred since the cambrian so you've got a whole range of organisms fish flying insects .

Appearing 500 400 to 500 million years ago dinosaurs around about 300 million years ago mammals not long after birds flowers and bees only 100 million years ago and then primates about 10 million years ago so .

Yeah the cambrian explosion there was a rapid evolution over about a 70 million year period but the young earth creationists have made have exploited this rapid explosion to claim that that's when everything .

Happened all rapidly and jammed it all together i wouldn't exactly call 50 or 60 million years rapid though no it's just like you can sort of understand why it's occurring it's probably the environment had changed to a point there's tons of .

Oxygen in the atmosphere and when something works and this is how evolution works evolution works it's not a random process there are random changes that occur but evolution whatever works gets reproduced and .

Carried on to another next generations so they're just a whole pile of things that's um changes that occurred that were selected on and then passed on and you you get these very rapid um .

Explosions that occur and these there are explosions in evolution that i can that are happening all the time throughout that period for example i'll give you a good example from euclip so i've got a couple of tree groups there that i've highlighted .

As well conifers emerged about 300 million years ago whereas eucalypts and other flowering plants um so conor for the cone bearing there's a big difference between cone bearing plants and the eucalypts which are flowering and all of the other flowers the flowering plants that we have on the .

Earth they emerged about 100 million years ago um but eucalypts in australia have now evolved into about 800 different species if you come to australia and you drive anywhere and you go anywhere in australia or you see a euclips .

Genus and it's evolved extremely rapidly over about a period where most of them have evolved within the last two to three million years about 800 definitely in the last 5 million years 800 different species of euclid's .

Because australia has become a very dry continent and eucalypts are extremely well adapted they've found a way to survive in a very dry continent with lots of bushfires so if you go out into a euclid forest after a bushfire they bounce back they .

Sprout back after a bushfire should have stuck in a photo of them but um so there are many explosions that occur during evolution there are periods when not a lot of change occurs because there's no the the organism hasn't picked up a an advantage that can that can make them .

Dominate other organisms in the environment so while the euclids were exploding there might have been many other species that went extinct because the euclids out compet outcompeted them so so i just wanted to put the cambrian .

Explosion into uh context there um so he makes a lot of other points he uh he makes some comments about derogatory this is coffin we're talking about now you make some fairly derogatory comments about neanderthals and casts doubt over whether they were any different to human beings .

And of course we now have the genome of neanderthals and we now know that most of us have about three to four percent of neanderthal dna in our own genome which we'll talk a lot more in my the next episode when we talk about human evolution so that's those are my responses to .

To coffin but what is most really quite interesting is that the young earth creationism that i've been talking about um that's in this institute manual is completely rejected by scientists at brigham young university .

So the lesson manual makes no citations of mormon scientists it refers to its sites a seventh-day adventist scientist from 45 to 50 years ago but makes no reference to to byu .

And it's not surprising that we've got young earth creationism ideas are now starting to crop up in the lds community precisely because the church doesn't take a position and as we can see the doctrine from that we've been talking about is very powerful .

And uh we've now got the firm foundation with rodney meldrum um spreading young earth creationist ideas and back in 2017 the firm foundation advertised one of their conferences in the byu daily universe magazine .

And featuring at this firm foundation conference was dean sessions who has published these enormous books where he proves that the entire scientific community of the world is in the dark ages and that he has discovered a new scientific paradigm .

And that is that the earth the center of the earth is filled with water and that water came out and flooded the earth during the flood it's just absolutely crazy stuff and i have been up i have had a front row seat to that speech of dean sessions at the book of mormon evidence conference .

Yeah i did see that that was great i'd love to be there i mean it's very entertaining stuff um but can you imagine how scientists who work their butts off for their career and are academics of respected academics at brigham young university and here the byu magazine is publishing .

Publicizing an event that's spouting young earth creation there these people are cranky and so they write in and this so let's read this out who's john here okay so this is the this is sorry this is signed by a bunch of um of the academics and phds and they're .

Just not having any of it they're like okay so this is uh yeah this is today's april 4th 2017. defense of peer-reviewed science this is at a division one university in the 21st century in defense of .

Peer-reviewed science let us just clarify okay quote we members of the byu's department of geological sciences cannot accept mr sessions universal model as it runs contrary to multiple lines of empirical evidence and generations of scientific query it would not pass expert peer review .

I would say to put it mildly that's my commentary yes next paragraph students and the byu community are reminded that organic evolution anthropogenic climate change radiometric dating and a 4.56 billion year old age of the earth are all seriously taught on campus by professors who are in good standing with the church in fields .

Directly relating to these subjects students may learn more about these subjects through a variety of courses offered by the department of geological sciences as well as from other departments they kind of threw down the gauntlet yes .

Yeah and they all a whole bunch of them signed it and there would be yeah there would be many other scientists in the life sciences department that would have been equally angry with the with that advertisement because yes it's not dean sessions .

Doesn't have a strong scientific background and he's nothing that he's writing has been peer reviewed and yeah rightly so they're very very annoyed .

Yeah mikey mike writes wow i'm surprised that they affirm evolution they want to stay accredited so they kind of have to well let's flick to the next slide um because there's alright really quickly simon really quickly yeah um there's a few super chats that have come in h benzula donated 50 to simon's project .

And uh garrett j donated 20. we really appreciate those of you who are uh either through the stars feature on facebook or through the super chat feature on youtube uh and and and simon the the fundraising campaign for your initiative is up to 158 dollars here on youtube so .

People are stepping up all right i just wanted to take a minute to thank those who were donating and of course again there's a link in the description where any of you who want to become monthly support supporters to simon's new um mormon doctrine versus science uh series you can support this episode and you'll get a free copy .

Of simon's new book on book of mormon genetics okay sorry keep going simon i just had to make that shout out and thank our donors yeah so it gets even if they're not only teaching organ organic evolution they're teaching human evolution .

At bringing young university and they're equally frustrated by by the statements of earlier general authorities in the church like the one of joseph feeling smith that we read out and you can see this comment from mike dr michael whiting who's teaching human evolution at byu .

This is a quote from him on twitter nothing has been more destructive to our students than giving them an ultimatum that they must either believe the gospel or believe in evolution um you can see who you know you can just tell who he's responding to he's responding to .

The problems that joseph fielding smith is creating right for them um he calls it destructive not nothing has been more destructive so not even john delaney has been more destructive it's true can i just speak from experience .

Accepting that my church did not accept evolution did 80 of my faith crisis i didn't even care well anything to do with this guy i'm sorry gerardo i'm sorry lgbt rights were not on my like purview nothing else i just couldn't accept that i know for a fact evolution and we you know evolved and had this common ancestor i couldn't worship .

I couldn't i just couldn't do it anymore but but but for our non-mormons i just want to take a second to talk about how delicate this is because yes yes byu professors in the science department are pro-evolution but religion professors at the same byu are .

Anti-evolution and all of the students most of the students who attend brigham young university were raised by parents and attended seminary and institute classes and sunday school classes where evolution was taught not only to be wrong but to be like one of satan's teachings .

And then you add to that all the prophetic utterances of people like bruce mcconkey and joseph fielding smith denouncing uh you know evolution as one of the seven deadly heresies and i'm not making that up then you've got this environment where the .

The church has officially chose to not take an official stance because they can't throw past profit sears and revelators under the bus so they're silent on the matter all the students are coming armed for bear to kill all the byu science professors that are pro-evolution and uh it makes it a real and the .

Professors don't want to lose their jobs they don't want to lose tenure and they don't want to denounce past profit sears and revelators so they have to and even even when i was there like students were turning in biology professors and complaining to you know school administration that their professors were teaching evolution .

And i know this happens in 2022 so it's just this weird bizarre kabuki dance that our culture is doing yeah yeah that's wild you can get a diploma from brigham young university and you could have all of your classes you're taking religion classes that teach anti-evolution in the same day that you're getting a biology degree or .

You're learning evolution and nobody has a problem i have a problem it's weird i like the term the kabuki dance what's the kabuki dance maybe i used about term it's it's just no it could it could be a fast i don't i don't know really what the term is but .

You've you've got this i'm guessing it doesn't exist i well i i think what's going on is sort of like an outsourced gas lighting okay people when you you see a problem you talk to a leader they say go and talk to the experts .

The experts give a solution that doesn't align with what the leaders believe so you know if you go and talk to the church leader i've got a problem because you know evolution they'll say go and talk to the scientists of .

Byu and then they'll tell you something completely different to what the church believes so it's it's just it's quite dishonest because the problem the problems are real they're just not being addressed um so the leaders are outsourcing their problem .

Solving to uh sort of semi-independent people who are paid salaries by the church um so i don't know it's it's hard to sort of i don't know what the name for that sort of thing is but .

It's um plausible deniability is one way of referring to it because if the you know if they go and talk to an academic at byu they don't like what they hear they come back to the church leader and they say well the academic said this well yeah it's not me it's the academic .

But also there you know the lds church you know claims 16 million members they've got members of the u.s senate members of the house of representatives they've got federal just justices ceos of fortune 500 companies not to mention all the professionals out there it's a real disservice to millions .

Of mormons to continue to have such an anti-science curriculum yeah that leaves so many people like me and kara and gerardo and others like to be a faithful obedient mormon means to distrust .

And downgrade the validity of science and the scientific method to feel like to feel like you're a faithful mormon you have to distrust and devalue science which is going to have all sorts of implications whether it's um believing in gym theory whether it's believing in modern medicine whether it's believing in climate uh climate .

Change not to get political but like there's real world implications for teaching millions of people with educ with money and power that science isn't necessarily to be trusted or even more explicitly that science is to be distrusted am i overstating that well .

I mean i don't want to get into the debate about vaccines right but just to mention like no wonder why the church has had a hard time with their members to accept the validity or the safeness of vaccines even though the first presidency has come out with statements and promoting it and saying .

People should get vaccinated um i was trying to avoid that topic that's why i said germ theory generically um at the early stages of pandemic i joined a an online forum to discuss the science surrounding covert and uh .

It was um created by an ex-mormon good ex-mormon friend of mine but there were many um mormons in the group and i had to leave after a couple of weeks because i repeatedly just felt this .

In the default position was to distrust science and to question absolutely everything and and the motives so there was a question of questioning of the motives or distrust of the motives of the scientists um i think i remember putting up we were discussing uh i put .

Forth a paper that was done by scientists i think they were in france and they were looking at the um in the very early stages because we'd gone into lockdowns to protect everyone and they were looking at the levels you know when they brought in the um .

Tests to determine whether people had been infected so any antibody to the earliest antibody tests and they found that there were very low levels still only two or three percent of the french population something like that had been infected and so the the scientists just made the observation .

That it would there is not enough immunity in the population that if you if you ended locked down straight away that you had enough immunity in the to protect the population that's a scientific observation um but there are those in the group who felt oh .

They're they're pushing their policy they're pushing government policy they weren't they were just stating a fact that if if only two or three percent of your population has been infected with covert and you've got 97 percent have not been infected if you stop lockdowns then the .

Virus is going to go rampant and you have thousands and thousands of people dying um so yeah so i had to i just had to leave the group because i it was not just one or two it was just i felt the the default position was to distrust .

Science and i think it's probably connected with science uncovering things a little bit uncomfortable right that was my point to mention it just that mormons used to distrust science like um i mean everybody can have their own opinions about um vaccines but we're .

Talking about about mormonism and their relationship with science and just the fact that you know the solid terrain has published articles by scholars mormon scholars talking about it just show like it's a fact that mormons haven't had a hard time trusting science .

And it's not surprising when you see all of these quotes from you know apostles and even prophets um that are just so critical of it uh somebody raised in a very anti-science family let me just say that it really comes down to mormonism uh and it's in the shadow in the shadow of byu .

By the way yeah in provo the um the doctrines around like personal revelation are really important to a lot of mormons and so if you start with the presupposition that the church is true and you can you can go on whatever feelings you that come into your heart is truth now that's directly you're interpreting that .

As directly from god that's a revelation that you've gotten that trumps all science um for the people i know so and i'll just add i i'm gonna be doing an episode of the next few days on the decline of the mormon church question mark uh you know .

Inside information so i've got an inside source someone who works at a high level in the church and he told me that in his stake they're losing far more mormons to sort of who are angry about the church .

Uh accepting vaccines promoting and encouraging vaccines they're losing far more members on the right conservative anti-science side than they are on the left lgbt affirming um you know faith crisis uh over over church history kind of issues so this is actually this is actually causing a real .

Fracturing in the church it's sort of the chickens coming home to roost when you bring up a big percentage of your population uh being anti-science and then there's a pandemic and then there's a vaccination that you want to encourage literally to keep your members alive .

And then the vegans kind of come home to roost when they leave your church because you're encouraging the support of science yeah it's not to get political i'm just saying like we're talking about the delicate dance the church is now having to make because of its history of being anti-science these things interlocked .

Trust me i went like i was saying at the book of mormon evidence conference you have people not just talking about this also right no that was in uh sandy oh okay soon because you have booths there and they're talking about the book of mormon evidence that also has a lot to do with this young earth creationism stuff we're .

Talking about the earth having a core that's of ice and water and then they're also selling um essential oils and all of those things just go right together and interlock perfectly for people who are not super into science and by the way you meant you mentioned dean sessions he says in the speech that i watched that .

Byu is too progressive now and a lot of people are going further and further into their own little like conclaves and and their own little pods of mormonism that's what i saw with you know rod meldrum and those type of people they're more and more insular now distrustful of even byu distrustful of the prophets of the church pushing .

Vaccines and they get more and more into their own little ideas in this one little bubble that's what that's mine that's what i observed and it's a wild wild phenomenon we'll get into it more and more through all of these um here in australia but not nearly as as um see the .

Covert is not really i mean we've got the fringe elements but both of our major parties have been fully supportive of their vaccines and um basically following the science no so there's there's just this great much greater acceptance of science in an evil secular country like australia but um .

Let's get back to your slides let's go back to the slides because this is a um i don't have references for this but trust me i've just drawn it from a bunch of you know pew research sites and other people have done surveys of the ls church and whatever .

Um but so this is this i think illustrates and this in the next slide will illustrate the challenge that the church has um in the the acceptance of human evolution is just so widespread and growing the next slide .

Will show this really clearly but um so for all intents and purposes you can if you if somebody accepts evolution from lower life they reject young earth creationism okay so if there's very very high acceptance of evolution they reject the .

Unearthed creationism that we're seeing in this uh institute lesson so amongst scientists biologists and geologists it's something like 99.9 who are trained and understand the science who accept evolution from lower forms of life human evolution as well .

Um so it's just widely widely very widely accepted among scientists generally it's a bit lower about 95 now put a box here for byu life scientists but i suspect anybody with a phd at byu would fully accept evolution and probably even human .

Evolution given that teaching it there so i suspect that at byu it's very high now if you look at advanced sort of developed countries you know australia the uk sweden i've blunt them all together here i've come up with an approximate numbers but it's about 85 of their population except .

Human evolution over millions of years um the us is a real outlier i've seen i've seen a graph where they rank about 50 countries and i think the only country below america was turkey .

So you got you know about only about 50 of the us population they're americans just very religious and quite quite an interesting outlier in this in the global population so when you come to utah if you rank .

U.s states utah is the bottom of the u of the us almost wow it's down there with alabama and mississippi and um other states predominantly from the south i guess um i've also added the bar there for ex-mormons because you might have .

Remember i did a poll um about a couple of months ago i can i polled um a bunch of ex moments here in australia and in the us and i was quite surprised it's very high it's probably way higher than 95 cent i .

Think it's close to 98 of ex-mormons who who fully accept evolution over millions of years so it's interesting that they go from an environment where it's it's suffocatingly um you know basically young earth .

Creationist ideas uh the norm and accepted um they leave the church and they just completely let go of it so simon i i conclude at least two things from this slide well one is that ex-mormons are better than australians but then i does that mean the next .

Mormon australians are the best of all is that is that what you're saying no i was actually quite surprised we were no better than you guys australian ex-mormons were pretty much the same actually 10 of the australians that i surveyed the ex-williams that i surveyed didn't .

Have an opinion okay and it's sort of it was lower in america america is a bit more polarized um but i suspect it is they just don't care um the 10 so i don't think we had we did have one person that said they were a young earth creationist but they were american .

So they were they joined the australian post-mormon group and the um but yeah no that was very similar just a very high proportion i was quite surprised i thought it was going to be you know quite a bit lower um but this is a graph that is fascinating for what it reveals .

About the trends that are occurring in the world and i think my theory is that the internet is probably um starting to uh influence these sorts of views on evolution so .

The graph that i'm showing here is the are the result it shows the results of a 35-year survey that was conducted on first-year university students who were about to study biology at the university excuse me at the university of new south wales .

And each year about 400 you students are surveyed as they walk into their first lecture and they're asked you know do they what they believe the options there are only four options on the survey um one of them do you basically do you accept human evolution over millions of .

Years uh without any intervene intervention from god so they fully accept evolution then one option was do you um do you believe god directed evolution over millions of years um another option was they're uncertain .

Uh and the final option was do you believe that the earth was that evolution uh or dublin basically creationism that life was created on the earth about 10 000 years ago so it's interesting because when i f this survey started not long after i .

Had commenced university and back then um about 50 percent of kids believed that god directed evolution over many years that's now dropped down to around about 20 percent over the 35-year period but in the same time .

The number that fully accept a evolution without a god involved has risen from 30 percent to i estimate today 70 percent and you can see there's a line so they've got each year they've got a dot and there's a line .

That plots where the uh sort of you know where where it's heading and it's it's there's a clear uptick so it's actually it's sort of accelerating in the last 20 years the acceptance .

Of evolution and you can see a very clear downtick in the acceptance of creationism which back in uh you know 1985 was around about 10 of the students fronting up at university believed creationism ideas that's now down in 2022 to probably .

Closer to two to three percent and that's looks like it's accelerating down and i don't think there's any real surprise here because if you go on the internet now with the explosion of scientific information in .

The last 10 you know 20 years 30 years with the human genome and all of the exciting sciences being published it's not just the science it's the science communication and the the world has just got really really good scientific .

And communication science communication specialists have become very very good at explaining in very simple terms how things work and what evolution means and the basis of dna and all this sort of stuff .

So it's it's um it's very easy to understand that kids these days who are very literate on the internet find their way in to see these videos and many of these are just only five minutes .

And i've on the the final slide i've actually got links and i think um gerardo will put these up afterwards to a couple of links that explain dna science in five minutes and they are absolutely brilliant they explain them more beautifully than i ever have ever seen before they're truthful they're honest and .

They're accurate but they're just so beautifully explained with the graphics and and worlds very well very simple explanations from very competent uh communication specialists so .

It's no surprise so these are trends that the church cannot push back can't ignore um these are i don't i suspect that these trends are happening in the us i suspect probably in utah as well because mormon kids are going to see all of these .

Videos explaining evolution and dna and all that sort of stuff so it's just interesting to see that change in those positions that are going to come the way of the church because the younger generation you know is growing up very very science literate um but i threw in this side to contrast .

The church's position with the catholic position on evolution the catholic church actually has quite a deal of respect for science um in fact since 1936 i think it's about 85 years the catholic church has had a pontifical academy um .

At the uh in the holy see in in rome where they have uh scientists that are employed they even invite other scientists that are not catholics to come and speak at the academy the only thing they have to agree to is to not .

Be rude to the the catholic church they can talk about any science so the church is very open to science and this is what pope francis said in 2014 when we read the account of creation in genesis we risk imagining that god was a magician complete with an all-powerful magic wand .

But that was not so evolution in nature does not conflict with the notion of creation because evolution presupposes the creation of beings who evolve that's the catholic pope sorry the pope is a catholic obviously i think that's a joke um that's a great contrast though between .

You know 2014 but that it will be um if you go back to that slide i just wanted to make one more point with regards to the pope that is not a sudden change of position for the catholic church in 2014 okay the catholic church has been cool with this stuff for decades .

Okay they are not taking a stand they're not going to die on this hill but it's interesting that they have and if you go and you can go online and read about the academy so they make lots of very um i mean it makes sensible if you're the head of the biggest church on one of the biggest churches on the planet .

You need to be abreast of these things you need to be abreast of science they take lots of positions on science moral positions which you know might be questionable um but in terms of science they they they it's like they sort of they respect science and scientists you see a very i think it's quite a .

Clear difference with the church because the leaders of the lds church seem to believe that they're the experts on everything and they're making claims in the scientific field um which are very problematic and you're saying there's but yeah contrast that with um .

You might want to read this one out you put it in there but yeah russell and nelson's views on evolution this is a quote he was interviewed by the pure research center back in 2007. he said to think that man evolved from one species to another is to me incomprehensible .

Man has always been man dogs have always been dogs monkeys have always been monkeys it's just the way genetics works there's one kind of monkey one kind of dog yeah one kind of human one kind of homo sapien yeah basically what he's saying he's .

Saying i don't know what a species is and i don't know how genetics works he's admitting the problem as he's talking yeah it's just it's actually not the way genetics works um and if we go into the next we're going to finish off with just a couple of slides .

Yeah sorry go ahead john it is just outrageously bizarre that a medical doctor in the 21st century in a global world religion uh shows such a paltry and embarrassing .

Uh level of intellectual sophistication i am deeply embarrassed that this guy leads our church holding this point of view yeah you added this simon i don't know if you want to talk about it just really quick that's this sentence is the less a heart surgeon knows about evolution the better .

Yeah that's uh that's a quote from me actually it's just i don't he's not an expert on evolution he's probably not he's forgotten everything he was taught in evolution at university uh it was probably a university where most of places where he studied .

They probably didn't believe evolution anyway but he's influencing millions of people and that's that's the problem influenced me right out of the church as a matter of fact literally those those that one and the joseph fielding smith quotes are honestly like triggering i could cry .

Because it was me reading those quotes recognizing that i could not be in a church where that was the prophet that was leading it because like john said it was embarrassing i don't want to be associated with it i was on that track via maybe god did evolution but there you are he's not even admitting the evolution .

Well i'm going to show you a couple of um slides now about dog evolution okay because just when you start searching online there are just dozens and dozens of amazing research papers that have been published on dog evolution just in the last five .

Years 10 years but dogs and wolves are 99 99.9 identical of the genome level it's well known amongst scientists that dogs are domesticated wolves .

Okay so they're 99.9 to give you some context most the human next to you sitting next to you is probably about 90 their genome is about 99.9 uh the same similar to yours so the the amount of variation that we have between dogs and .

Wolves is similar very similar not much different to the variation we have in the human population all they are is just highly selected breeds i mean they're actually a very very beautiful illustration of evolution in action .

Okay you have all of this random variation in the wolf genome and in the the ancestral uh the earliest dogs that were domesticated which obviously would have looked very much like wolves but they carried a huge amount of variation .

And then humans have selected them so human is the natural driving force that has selected them when they're breeding them and that's given rise to the massive variation that we have in dogs today but this is a graph that i've i'm showing a graph here which is basically .

It's a what they call a phylogenetic tree so they've they've grouped true dogs into a tree based purely on their dna similarity and in this paper they'd gone back and they'd sequenced the genomes of some very ancient dogs .

That they'd found in germany and they can tell from the fossils very clearly that they're a dog and they're not a wolf and they found from that information that dogs probably began separating from wolves about 40 .

000 years ago and so by about 20 000 years ago they then started to diverge into the breeds of dog that we have that are common in say china india and europe so before adam yes 40 000 .

Before adam yeah the other interesting thing is that uh so that's from you might even want to put that link to the nature paper that was in 2017. in the show notes yeah but the next slide and there's another link you can put in as well for the show notes because this is a pretty .

Interesting one but if you search for just dog evolution images you'll probably find this image but if you could expand that one yeah harada and what you can on the left hand side of this diagram is a .

Spectacular phylogenetic tree of dog evolution so what the scientists have done is they've sequenced the mitochondrial genome most people have probably heard about the mitochondrial dna work that was done on humans in native americans i've talked a fair bit .

About in the past um but they've sequenced the mitochondrial dna of over 650 dog breeds as well as wolves and they've built this beautiful phylogenetic tree that groups dogs and they're grouped um .

All of the dog the major dog breeds into this beautiful spot uh spot basically a circular phylogenetic cherry that where it radiates from the center which was where the original wolf ancestor of dogs came from and you can just see all of the major groups .

Of dogs um all bunch very neatly together in this phylogenetic tree but what i've highlighted on the right hand side of the slide is a magnified area from that from that slide showing .

The evolution of wolves and some of the ancient breeds that i think are quite interesting one of them being the dingo dingos are a wild dog that's found in australia um it's believed that it was brought here by humans between something like three and five .

Thousand years ago and the dingo you can see because these phylogenetic trees they group dogs that are very closely if they're close together in the tree that means they're closely related as you can see here that the dingo is most closely related to dogs that .

Come from asia so there's a bunch of asian breeds of dogs from china and japan that are grouped fairly close to the dingo and that makes perfect sense because the dingo is brought in from probably from somewhere like papua new guinea .

Or from from indonesia in a migration but it also has in there a couple of north american breeds of dogs um i think if i can't one of them i think is the alaskan malamute and you've got a .

Uh a siberia as a husky there that are very few north american breeds of dogs that are surviving but there are two dogs there from the arctic which have survived and they're also included in this tree and they are related to asian dogs as well .

So you can see how the australian dingo and the um the breeds in north america are related descended from asian breeds now that's interesting because wolves are native to both north america and and to europe .

So why would it be that the north american dog breeds that the you know the eskimos had in the alaskans had um why would they not have been domesticated it doesn't appear that they were .

Domesticated from walls in north america wasn't an independent domestication this means that the dogs when the humans first came to the americas they brought with them dogs like otherwise we would see a very different .

Um very very different branch for the breeds that are unique to the americas interesting so cool simon yeah so i think it's not always been dark that was must've been really hard for noah to keep track of all those on the .

Ark too so many kinds but you you look at the staggering diversity of dogs yeah that appears in how long i i would say the the major breeds you know your terriers and your hounds and um whatever spaniels .

Whippets and whatever the major clusters probably were set in place a few thousand years ago because people were you know breeding dogs you know to accompany them when they're hunting when they protect their families or to to sniff out things underground .

Like ferrets or whatever so there were many early early domestication sort of laid the groundwork for many of the modern breeds but then it's just gone absolutely crazy in the last 300 years with you know .

What is now really quite dangerous breeding because they're leading to the problem of inbreeding where many of these breeds just have genetic you you've just sort of narrowed down their genetic base so much that you you create you increase the frequency of these problematic genes .

In their genomes so you end up with um defects so yeah it's a i mean it's beautiful to see this but there are there is a bit of a dark side to to what's going on with um uh dog evolution at the moment we've got a lot of crossbreeds like these poodle crosses with .

Many many different breeds of dogs these days um it's good from one perspective because it's sort of minimizing or reducing that sort of problem but yesterday yesterday mark and i were walking and i saw a cross between a poodle and a bernese .

Mountain dog and if you've ever seen how big bernice mountain dogs are i am wondering how that worked yeah they're pretty pretty famous the owner actually made the point that that the mom is the bernese mountain dog she felt like that was important to tell me .

My husband's really into dogs really really into dogs so sometimes they would do like artificial insemination you did that because usually you want the the dad to be a small dog so you would do artificial insemination to the big dog which would be the moment .

Yeah yeah kinda interesting that's um you can see one of the um aspects of evolution there that you're getting a breeding barrier which is occurring now if you just let them things run their course for another .

You know a few thousand years i mean there already are breeds of dog that you can't you can't in the breed with them because you know you can't eat a breeder to hour with a you know a massively large saint bernard i suspect would have to be done in a certain way .

Around as you mentioned john but the same thing occurs in trees um in euclid's there's an example of there's one euclid called eucalyptus globulus which has a massive flower that's probably two or three a couple of centimeters across and when you you can cross it .

With other eucalypts that have a very small flower but the you can't pollinate the male from the small flow you can't take the small male flower pollen and pollinate the the big eucalyptus globulus flower because the pollen hasn't got the energy .

To get down and fertilize the seeds in the flower see that is the running debate does size matter that's right in trees some trees but you that's that's how uh very often speciation occurs you get these barriers to reproduction .

That crop up and then a new species out there but there's often a period and this will come up in the when we talk about human evolution long periods where there's still a bit of cross mixing um between that's gone on in our past we're gonna .

We're gonna hear a bit about that but um it's also a thing in dog evolution so um there was a long period of time when wolves were still mating with dogs and i think they can even mate today with dogs we get mixing between dingoes and australian domesticated dogs as well .

So they can still interbreed so that's been a little bit of a complicating factor in the tracking the evolution of dogs because they will be with walls so simon to summarize what point you're making with this amazing dog chart in analysis tell us uh tell us what tell us what we .

Should conclude sorry let me find the right view tell us what we should conclude yes well uh yeah the um basically it's just it's it's it's happened over you know tens of thousands of years um .

And all aspects of evolution have been involved it's um considerable variation the wolf population probably new variation coming in from walls that's that's the raw material for evolution and then you've got selection .

So and we're here you know humans we're part of the natural world it's natural selection that's occurring just as done by humans i mean some people will call it artificial selection but you know it's a selecting driving force .

And you can see the impact of it in so in the massive diversity in in dogs today you know you could be excused for believing that some are different uh species but given enough time they will um .

Turn to different species and at the end well the re i think dogs is a really good example just to read here what you were saying simon uh dogs are a good example of evolution in a short period of time that we can .

You know see it in in a very short period of time how all these breeds uh have developed and how um yeah so so it's a very palpable example of evolution um and i i also think it's interesting that that also yeah i picked a big i picked it as an example because uh the prophet .

Mentioned dog evolution so great the bait was hung out there and i took the bait um but imagine a situation you can like throughout history you can imagine um the way evolution works is you've got all this variation .

Just imagine if a something happened and a particular variety of dog was the one that everyone wanted and all the other ones they just dropped them that's sort of how evolution works there'll be a particular force in evolution a niche will open up or or a .

A new food source will come along that a one variety of dog say can really latch onto that population then explodes becomes massive it then lives for thousands and thousands of years it starts accumulating genetic variation .

Then if another force comes along another driving force of natural selection comes along then you can get more and more um speciation occurring um if people are interested in looking at many other other examples of this .

There are beautiful if you go to smithsonian they've got beautiful illustrations of whale evolution whales are really fascinating because they land animals evolved out of the sea all the way the whales went back from land animals so there's a beautiful and they've got .

Many of the skeletons of all many of the ancestors of whales now really clearly identified so it's a fascinating story whale evolution a particularly interesting thing i heard i read just recently is from this from the rocks that the skeletons are buried in .

They can determine the oxygen concentration in the as they were formed okay so as the fossil is the animal dies and is buried and the fossils are formed the oxygen in the soil can tell you whether that organism was in a land animal or if it was in fresh water or if it was in salt water .

And it's they've been able to match up when the whale ancestors were living in fresh water from the the the rocks that were formed nearby personally so whales is a really good one um another one is horse evolution .

Fascinating yeah kara's pointing at something no just like a okay with me cool you're just you're really animated and that's that's cool because i freaking love evolution i'm just like can't sit still it's true well evolution .

Is going to be a constant theme uh throughout many of the scientific episodes and i will i'll talk a little bit more about it at the molecular level but uh because molecular genetics gives a is the really the building is the that's the nuts and bolts of how evolution occurs .

But um yeah look to wrap up for today i thought just sort of to summarize uh i think it's quite clear that mormon doctrine is fairly black and white and it's due to the additional lds scripture we have .

Adam is the father of the human race adam lived about 6 000 years ago and the garden of eden is a real place so they're they're almost not negotiable it's very i haven't seen much sign of any leaders of the church moving away from those um .

and it's quite clear from you know even james e talmage who was fairly pro-science um he rejects does not believe that humans evolved from a lower form of life and that's fairly a fairly widespread view in the church .

however many christian churches don't have this problem they don't have a problem believing that adam and eve um the story of the you know the garden of eden adam eve is fiction meanwhile we've got uh mormon scientists .

With byu are teaching human evolution and yeah i don't know how long that will go on this this uh this sort of almost bipolar uh handling of um of uh human evolution it's okay no go ahead go ahead simon i'm .

Just gonna shift on to the next slide which sort of gives a brief well what i would if we can go back to what i would add to that summary slide is that mormon doctrine teaches that prophet seers and revelators speak directly to god they have been .

Miseducating the members for well over 150 years now that this has been damaging to the intellectual development of the lds church membership but also now the church .

Is trying to have it both ways where they don't denounce the past utterances of prophet seers and revelators um but they also don't come out in support of evolution and so they they had this kind of .

Oatmeal middle ground where they declined to take a position uh and that leads to more confusion and it also leads to a continued uh you know fracture and schism within the church as the church has a large branch of science deniers .

And science haters and then and then a bunch of other people that want to leave the church because the church is too two back backwoods too primitive too unsophisticated and uh and it just ultimately begs the question .

What is the value of mormon scripture if it can get things so fundamentally wrong what is the value of profiteers and revelators if they not only don't see this ahead of time but even yeah even half a century after a century after this stuff is revealed they still won't embrace it uh .

And then what does it mean now to all the you know if if the church gets it wrong on evolution and on the age of the earth and on adam and eve which all mormon doctrine and theology and scripture are based on including the temple ceremony what what else did the church get wrong uh .

And i think that's part of what this series is gonna help us explore are any of the other things the church has gotten wrong over the years is that am i being too harsh the you know there was a general authority when and spoke at um like his name is pearson .

One of the general authorities was under the direction of the leaders of the church spoke at one of the apologetic meetings fair in about 2017 or 2018 i think and in defense of the book of mormon he encouraged independent voices okay that's a green light for crazy town .

He's encouraging people to get online and and produce videos to defend the book of mormon they're doing it for not just the book of mormon but they're doing it for young earth creationism i mean rodney meldrum is a product of encouraging independent or not taking a .

Position and encouraging these independent voices i'm not sure i'm not sure we told you simon but we plan on having rodney meldrum on mormon stories in the next few weeks all right we we may we may seek your support in preparing for that you finally caved in no we're not caving in yeah .

My mom has never watched my this podcast until she's like when's he coming on she can't wait to watch rod tell us what's what okay my mom will be tuning in simon we're going to be careful we're not going to let him spout pseudoscience we are we are going to have him tell a story .

And then we're going to put him on the record of what his positions are but we're not going to let him try and argue them in any persuasive way but we do want to get him on the record of what his positions are yeah publicly yeah well that's that's probably going to be an episode i can respond to .

and we're not going to we're not going to you're not going to beat them up and we're not trying to like set a trap no but he influences at least tens of thousands of people and i have a personal stake in it just because my parents are always sending me his books and things so .

Um yeah i think like john said that he influences a lot of people so getting him on record of just the things that he believes without having too many convincing arguments i mean i don't think they are convincing but uh yeah doing it in a respectful way on this platform you you you pay attention to meldrum a .

Lot too right a little not a lot but yeah yeah yeah and simon just so you know rodney has seen uh the episode that you did with gerardo of you you know debunking the heartland model oh yeah yeah i think he responded on uh i think i actually listened to his .

Response he responded another podcast yeah series yeah he didn't really give um solid responses to the science um yeah i mean it's just a it's a tricky thing .

Um yeah well let's talk about what we've got next and then i want to close by re-plugging our our series and asking people to support so what's next on what's next to bat simon well i think the next thing is when we've talked a little bit about human .

Human evolution um but uh as i mentioned at the beginning you know i opened a can of worms with creations a whole bunch of science topics that come up out of that candle i think the the first uh .

First one that's worth addressing is really human evolution in detail so we'll go over a little bit of what we've talked about here but um probably talk a bit more about some of the comments church leaders have made about evolution uh but then go out and and i'd like to go through some of the .

Just the science related to human evolution from a range of areas um i don't want to just sort of give lots and lots of evidence from you know a range of fields i just want to tell little stories about particular pieces of science that i .

Think are really extremely compelling um one of them is is the presence of neanderthal and denisovan dna in our genomes these denisovans died out 60 000 years ago and uh the anthills died out about 30 .

000 years ago okay so how is it that sounds very preaty to be carrying um that dna but there are many other pieces of molecular evidence that are independent that um .

Really clearly illustrate that we are humans have evolved from common ancestors with primates and all living things so and i um i've some apologists are starting to comment about these sorts of things and .

I'll have some interesting quotes from hugo perego who's um famous for he was pretty much the principal author of the dna versus the book of mormon essay but he has spoken about human evolution he believes that humans evolved 200 000 years ago .

He didn't have any problem with preadomites um so yeah mind if we ask you another um follow-up question as we wrap up sure um so in your opinion how do like evolutionary scientists um that are .

Mormon embrace evolution and also stick out stick with the mormon beliefs at the same time what's your opinion on that i think there are a few things that they just don't form too hard an opinion on i suspect well i suspect they believe that evolution .

Is a process that god used over millions of years to guide the formation of our species i don't know how they grapple with adam and eve um hugo perego does try to grapple with adam and eve a bit but his escape clause is always oh the church doesn't have a position .

On this um but as we can see the church has made many positional statements over the years um you're gonna cover if it it deposit if it's possible that all the human species .

Came out of a couple right like adam and eve yeah we'll talk about that there's just not enough genetic there's so much genetic variation in the human population you can't squeeze it through two people seven thousand years ago .

Right yes and that's the mormon position that's what we learn in the temple it's what we learned from scriptures as you pointed out that's unique that's the lds position and humans are being this is abundant evidence that china has been heavily populated by .

Humans for ten thousand twenty thousand years um humans have been in asia for forty to fifty thousand years um aboriginal australians have been in australia for 50 to 60 000 years um so if you start insisting that if all .

Humans descend from atoms six or seven thousand years ago then there's going to be mormons who attempted to narrow down that human population who are genuine atomites and the other ones that are not descended from adam and then you're getting into very .

Dangerous territory and there are some early statements in the church quotes i might dig out from very early on in the history of the church where they claimed that it was the white race were descended from adam okay yeah that's a problem this is i mean this is a minefield for .

The church yeah a real minefield so but um i won't i won't uh treat too carefully we'll set a few of them off all right well before we close i have to make one more pitch really quickly uh for those of you who joined us late that didn't hear the introduction or for .

Those who haven't kind of thrown their support yet i just want to make sure everybody uh hears what we announced at the beginning that we're super excited that we're launching a new car it's kind of a pilot project with dr simon southerton our plan is to have him come once a month on .

Uh mormon stories podcast and over a you know 12 to 15 to 20 month period uh hopefully do an episode a month where he takes on various aspects of mormon doctrine and analyzes how they match up to science uh and uh we will be we want to we will be paying dr southerton or simon for his .

Work so we're asking everyone to please uh go to mormon podcast simon click on the donation button become a monthly donor and we promise that 100 of your donations to this project will go to support simon and you when you when you click that donate button you'll get a little message that .

Gives you a link to a pdf which is simon's new book new i say in the past year or two it's a book called the sacred curse how native american dna exposes mormonisms lamanite myth it's a follow-up to losing a lost tribe that was simon's first book on this topic .

But uh it's a really important book and if you want the latest in uh dna and native americans in the book of mormon uh support simon support the education the informed consent of mormons and non-mormons everywhere and uh support simon's work on mormon stories please .

Thanks john i was just going to say that yeah when i talk about um the sacred curse was published a couple years ago even in that couple of years there's just been really fascinating discoveries and i'll try to when i talk do a podcast .

Have the absolute latest research that's relevant to the particular topic like for example the fact that um polynesians reached the americas you know a couple of hundred years before columbus reached the americas .

That was only discovered in the last 18 months as well so really fascinating stuff and that's so that's not even in my book john uh i think there's a couple people saying that they donated but they haven't gotten the link to the book um is it something that's going to happen lately .

So no the the way i set the donation button up is they get they should get a reply email that gives them the link and if it's not working if you donated and you didn't get a reply email with the link just email me at mormonstories i will send you the link directly .

But what should happen is you should get a reply email that includes the link but we just set the system up we won't rip you guys off but uh we'll take care of you and we'll test it and make sure it works i set that up like 30 minutes before we came to air so .

Yeah yeah um and gerardo can i just thank you i know you put a ton of work into this getting simon's audio set up his camera helping simon with the research and with the slides and just making all this happen gerardo you are a rock star .

You are a super valued and treasured member of this team we love you and appreciate you so much thank you for making this happen and same thing here herrera's been fantastic um found some really neat little links um so yeah these uh little video he put me onto an absolute cracker of video .

The other day and uh it's really been very healthy he's been very helpful thank you simon you're you're you're a legend simon you're a you're a pioneer you're a legend and we honor you we're not worthy we should do a wayne's world we're not working we're not worthy .

Thank you simon for coming there is a good influence on you now wayne's world's before kara's time i grew up on wayne's world actually oh okay all right yeah okay i think you better leave .

Yeah thanks for helping us not have this be a sausage fest you uh it's great to have you on i made it into one with all of my questionings about size apparently in the comment section i was bringing down the the level of discourse uh with humor yeah or raising us .

People understand which is very important okay well well simon again thank you gerardo cara thanks everyone and thanks to all our viewers and listeners that made amazing comments on the live stream we really appreciate that thanks to everyone who donated we did have several people donate you can still do it if .

You're on youtube right now you can click on the little simon sotherton campaign we're up to 354 dollars oh gosh we hope to pay simon at least a thousand dollars per episode um we've also got donations coming in to uh uh to the link the donor box link those are monthly donations if we can you know we we love monthly donations .

Because then we can know that we're going to be able to meet the goal so thank you youtube's great donations there but also for those of you who are willing to donate in the donor box link that'll allow us to predictably pay simon or figure out what we can do to fundraise to uh throw throw simon a little cheddar cheese for .

His amazing work throw them a little shrimp on the barbie you could say a lot of barbies so you know shrimp is a not a word that we use in australia what do you use for shrimp what's the word prawn prime that was the whole thing was americanized .

Yeah it sounds alright yeah it sounds terrible thanks thanks again all right well thanks simon thanks everyone thanks to all you support warmer stories and yeah and uh please be good to each other please share this episode with everyone that you think .

Could benefit from it please send it to kara's mom and dad kara's siblings please send it to every church member in utah county and uh in cache valley and in southern utah and in idaho and arizona let them reckon with what their church .

Teaches versus what the university teaches just let them get educated about science yeah and uh if you're gonna have to choose between mormon doctrine and science and if there's a conflict go with science and i promise you eventually the church will follow along true .

I don't know i feel like they're going towards well we'll have to talk about the next episode are they going towards small tent mormonism are they doubling down we'll see we'll see i also have a great episode coming up on uh on you know is the mormon church in decline .

Uh tips from an insider that's going to be coming out in the next few days it's i think it's going to be kind of a blockbuster at least a relative blockbuster so stay tuned for that we've got rodney meldrum coming up lots of cool episodes in the coming uh weeks months and years on mormon stories podcast and cara i'm sure .

You'll uh you'll be bringing us some cool stuff like you did the jordan mckay episode yeah did you guys like jordan mckay's episode this week we had some great viewership we literally a lot of people tuned in we had the highest youtube viewership ever this week thanks to jordan mckay and kara for for lining that up yeah you .

Guys haven't seen them yet it's a three-part episode so go check them out they're really popular right now so yeah we've got a lot of exciting stuff coming from mormon stories we already mentioned margie's thrive project this simon satherton project we've got john larson on regularly and then john and i .

Have a few other projects we're going to be announcing in the coming weeks too so yeah and check out if you happen to be interested thrive saint george is next weekend uh obviously in saint george natasha david baccavoy jesse funk i'm going to be there lots of cool people are going to be .

There go to to register and then there's going to be a thrive houston a thrive southern california and a thrive florida on april 2nd and along with thrive thrive time for women in salt lake city over general conference weekend so please go to .

Thrive beyond religion to register for those amazing events where we do our best to create community communities of support focused on healing and growth for uh progressive and post mormons so thanks everyone uh stay tuned thanks kara you rock thanks simon gerardo and everyone else and uh love you guys be good to each .

Other and we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of more stories podcast choose science thanks everybody


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